# Oaks from Acorns



## StrmChzr

Since this is a family forum, I renamed this thread... Here's my attempt to outline and describe my methods growing oaks from acorns. To preface, these are not my original ideas, they should be appropriately credited to Dr Carl Whitcomb, Dr Michael Dirr, and others that have validated this system using the scientific process. I will not be appropriately citing references to substantiate these methods, however, I can reply to direct questions or challenges to methods if anyone doesn't "buy what I'm selling"... I hope this prevents the thread from becoming a rambling essay of concepts and keeps the processes simple and reproducible.





Guys, the end result implementing the root pruned container system after the first growing season for most species of oaks is a +3' tall seedling that, more importantly, can be transplanted to your property without the usual stalled top growth that occurs post-transplant during year 2 (and sometimes year 3) when transplanting bareroots and traditional round "smoothie" containers who roots are circling. It's not as simple though as just using the right containers.....

*Pic taken July 1st of various oaks started in early spring from acorns.*



*
Conversely, here's the lackluster midsummer results of acorns direct seeded onsite in April w/ no additional upkeep post-planting....



*

But (briefly) I'd like to address why anyone would spend the time, money, and energies growing oak seedlings at home before transplanting onsite. You've got to be a little _____ _____ (see last sentence of my final post in this thread) to do this and it seems to require an individual who enjoys this tree growing process.... My primary reason is superior genetics that I've identified in the parent tree which i will then collect and propagate their acorns. My objectives when selecting a superior tree are: abundant mast producers, delayed mast drop times, fast vegetative growth, and trees which begin producing acorns at young age.

In my "perfect world" of timber duck hunting, my properties will have thousands of phenotypically superior young oaks of various species thriving in an appropriate flood schedule environment. I subscribe wholeheartedly to selecting acorns with local provenance (google what this means).... My strategic goal are multiple species of oaks beginning to drop buckets of acorns within a decade of starting from them from seed.


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## StrmChzr

So now that we've got our "hands on our nuts", I float test them so I don't waste space on losers that float. The sinkers get 10 minute dunk in 5% bleach solution before being placed in gallon freezer Baggie and stored in garage fridge. Cold storage is required to stratify red oak family acorns and helps delay radicle emergence in white oak fam. The first is critical and the latter is more for convenience when handling acorns prior to germination. 





Beginning after the New Year, I'll begin pulling a couple bags of acorns out of cold storage every couple weeks to initiate germination. Acorn germination occurs when the seed radicle emerges from the tip of acorn which requires a warm moist environment. Simplest way of doing this is to place a sopping wet paper towel at the bottom of Tupperware container and lay acorns side by side to create 1 layer of acorns. Place another sopping wet paper towel on top of the acorns so that bottom layer is covered and repeat process until all acorns are "sandwiched" between paper towels. Create an air tight environment by snapping the Tupperware lid on and place container a few inches above a heat vent/register in your home. 

These are germinating Kentucky CoffeeTree seeds I started last spring after picking pods during turkey season.




Once radicle emerges from acorn, you are ready to plant that acorn in starter root pruning container. Take care to not disturb the other acorns that haven't germinated in Tupperware as once a radicle orients itself up/down, that's can't be changed... Sounds ridiculous, but if you flip an acorn that's beginning to germinate, the radicle will corkscrew and this in turn will become the shape of taproot. I'll skip why this will come back and bite you in the butt later in trees life but suffice to say it's not going to help your tree grow big and strong....

These Swamp Chestnut acorns from State Champ tree had begun germinating while in cold storage. All 3 are acceptable (ie no corkscrew or U turn radicles) but note they all have established downward direction of radicle and beginning to show signs of top growth (ie green portion where radicle emerges from acorn). It's imperative to plant them properly oriented in container (green up and white roots going down)...


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## StrmChzr

So why not buy gross of white styrofoam coffee cups and poke hole in bottom then fill with potting mix to use as starter containers?

Answer: Within a few days, the acorns radicle will extend a few inches to the bottom of cup and begin to circle as it tries to "find it's way through".....

Nature selected the taproot as means of ensuring oaks survival but we can dramatically affect the root structure and tree growth characteristics by not allowing all acorns energy be focused on taproot. The taproot ensures survival in nature but hinders nutrient and even h20 uptake in containers. We don't want one long taproot to maximize seedling potential, we want to create a fibrous root structure w/ dozens of secondary fine white roots created which will be capable of maximizing nutrient and H20 uptake.

I'm not even skimming the surface of the importance of root pruned seedling, so here's some links to provide more details about this critical procedure:
http://www.rootmaker.com/rootmaker-system
http://www.rootmaker.com/steps-1-4-process


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## StrmChzr

I use a product called Pioneer Pots (PPs) to air root Prune my seedlings the first 90-120 days after germination/planting. PPs are 2.5" wide and 6.5 deep containers that air prune roots trying to grow down and out of container. One tray holds 32 PPs and helps keep PP containers upright and organized so I can place them in SW facing spare room at my house beginning in Feb/March. 


Here's a little spring break vacation I gave seedlings from spare room in early March during a few days warm spell... 


See the white fine root hairs emerging from side and bottom of PPs. May not look beautiful to you, but from tree perspective, that's a great pair of legs! Those white root hairs will enhance top growth tremendously versus just a taproot and are going to result in dramatic growth potential being realized in the first 60 days of seedlings life. 



Stay tuned, ain't over yet....


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## StrmChzr

I'm partial to PP's b/c that's what I've used past few years..... Despite the fact that I've done more marketing for PPs than they recognize (google PPs and see what top 5 hits get ya), they don't comp me anything, so might try other good root pruning containers available such as Rootmaker Express 18's, TreePots, Plant Bands, etc.... It truly doesn't matter which brand you use as long as your seedlings are having bottom and lateral (side) roots pruned. Here's link to company that ships every root prune tree container to your door... Always check shipping charges -typically shipping is 40% of overall cost which sucks bad.......

https://www.stuewe.com

So you've ordered fancy smancy air prune root containers to give your golden acorns best chance starting out in life, now what do you put in container? Dirt, potting soil, hydroponic dope growing rocks???? Don't skimp on your potting medium or you'll have the best looking roots on a 6" seedling at end of summer instead of 3' seedling....

Miracle Grow (MG) is unacceptable!!! MG has too much super fine peat moss (PM) that'll cause dampening off issues the first 60 days. Look for specific tree potting mix such as Pro-Mix, Fafards, or Metro-Mix 852 at your local nurseries or nursery wholesalers.

I actually make my own potting mix using a modified version of an internet recipe by a container plant genius who goes by Tapla... Tapla 5:1:1 potting mix consists of 5 parts pine bark fines (1/16"-1/8" size is optimal), 1 part peat moss (I substitute fully aged compost for PM b/c of environmental issues w/ PM and cost), 1 part perlite improves drainage and aeration.

Tapla's 5:1:1 mix instructions w/ Q&A:
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1378483/taplas-5-1-1-container-mix-in-more-detail

I also add two more critical components to my potting mix:
1.) Controlled Release Fertilizer (CRF): I use Osmocote Plus 18-6-9 which contains micronutrients as well. I add something like 9 lbs of Osmocote Plus per cu ton of potting mix. This can get a bit expensive so buy in bulk when possible and don't screw yourself by skipping this step! CRF are almost idiot proof in that it's almost impossible to kill plants w/ CRF overdose and it's almost assured that you will burn/kill if using traditional chemical fertilizer...
2.) Dolomitic Lime (DL) to sweeten the pH a point or two more towards neutral... Remember Pine Bark and PM are fairly acidic so I add cup of DL for each cu ft of potting mix I make..... However, if there's one thing I'm willing to skimp on it would be this. I'm not sure research is conclusive that slightly acidic soil needs amending.. I do add DL b/c my property soils are more neutral to slightly alkaline, so I'm trying to match potting mix pH as closely as I can to my sites pH - maybe just b/c it makes intuitive sense to me and nothing else. 

So there you have it, the almost perfect growing environment for oak seedlings to grow like weeds! What I've described so far should get you 12"-18" tall oak seedlings in about 90 days if started in late winter (Feb-March) when light is weak...

As they say, the proof is in the puddin'..... Two "biggins" that have outgrown the PPs by July 1st.



Pair of White oaks (Q. Alba I believe) at day 75 in PPs. Dr Whitcomb recommends upshifting (transplant) to larger container sooner as opposed to later. My experiences confirm his recommendation. 



Pic sucks but you get point... those roots are going gonzo from being air pruned! This creates a superior root structure capable of maximizing nutrient uptake which directly affects top growth. Humid conditions in May allowed roots to grow outside PPs briefly but once temps increased, these roots growing outside PPs dried up which forced seedling roots to branch out from root tips and created a more fibrous root structure ready to really blow the top growth up once upshifted to larger container w/ additional nutrients combined w/ long intense sunlight we experience from June to September in Midwest.


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## StrmChzr

The 2 thriving (>18" tall) oak seedlings at top of previous post were doing very well July 1st last summer...

And within 2 days, they were goners b/c I delayed watering by 12 hours.... Moral of story, upshift to larger containers sooner than later not just to maintain growth momentum, but to prevent disaster from striking specific to seedlings H20 uptake in heat of summer. I tried upshifting this pair still from PPs to larger crappy smoothie container immediately, however, neither tree made it...





Compare root structure of 120 day seedling (left), 90 day (middle), and 75 day seedling (right).... Now here's the shocker, all three have almost identical top growth! Translation: Upshift oak seedlings on or before 75 day in PP to maintain growth momentum the second half of summer.



Here's the top growth of same 3 seedlings from pic above..... Notice growing season was over as evidence by changing colors and all 3 are about equal in size (lackluster 12"-16")! Also, despite more developed root structure on seedlings started earlier, the top growth doesn't reflect different seedling start times (age) throughout the summer...




Same scenario where entire tray of oak seedlings are maxed out top growth by July 1st in PPs and literally do not have another flush of leaves during the 2nd half of summer (next 75 days)


Inevitably this is what happens to seedlings left in PPs past 90 day mark during the dog days of July and August. The top growth becomes so demanding on water uptake that a skipped day watering can be catastrophic to seedling...unfortunately this pic was from this summer when we went on vaca and my water buddy dropped ball first couple days.. Torched maybe 15-20% of seedling that I hadn't upshifted yet from PP.


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## StrmChzr

I began upshifting seedlings started in PPs around the 75 day mark to a different type of root pruning container called a fabric grow bag. Specifically, these are 3 gallon Root Pouches (RPs) that are the 12 mo longevity version I upshifted from PPs the beginning of May. Pic was taken last week of July. You can see most of the seedlings are considerably larger before August than they were in previous post pic of PP tray that was taken end of last summer.






I tried 3 gallon RPs (12 mo version) and 5 gallon RPs (36 mo version) this summer and really liked the 5 gallon RPs durability (and handles), not so much for the 3 gallon version that I experienced some fabric tearing when rough handling fabric bags moving them around.

Here a close up of the 5 gallon (36 month longevity) RPs w/ handles so you can see difference between fabric bags. I used the 5 gallon (36 month longevity) RPs. They have worked great so far, are most inexpensive option available, and also provide root pruning features to enhance root structure by entrapping root tips which prunes them similar to air pruning pots.





I use the same "formula" potting mix as described previously with one exception. Potting mix stays same, however, 30 days after transplanting from PPs to RP's, I top dress the RPs with 1 cup of milorganite. Milorganite is, well, Milwaukee's human waste (ie poo) thats been digested by microbes at that city's waste water plant. Milorganite is organic fertilizer containing 5-2-0 NPK while also adding Organic Matter to potting mix structure. No I wouldn't put it on my garden plants that I consume, but if you want perfect lawn fertilizer or safe tree fertilizer, it's my "GO to" product to safely get another mid-late summer flush of leaves before I let seedlings begin hardening up for winter.

Here's few hundred oak seedlings in RPs that started 2015 as acorns. 55 gallon drum in middle of tree pile is 36" tall for reference.




Doubtful anybody's still reading thread at this point, but to sum everything up and to restate the original thread title, growing oaks from acorns is NUCKIN' FUTZ!


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## da fowl slayer

Or
Deez nuts!!!!


Dude that some serious thought
And sweet info to

I am pretty inpatient and it's worse than watching paint dry for me

I have a project that is 13 yrs old and this yr we found some very small acorns 

I was exhausted waiting to see some


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## Clayton

Just now getting the time to skim through this post. Excellent job! We need to get this made a STICKY. I will be collecting acorns soon. At least with willow oaks I have found that the acorns that drop off early are almost always floaters. In fact I have gotten where if collecting in Oct. I only collect ones still attached to the tree.


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## StrmChzr

LOL - patience isn't my virtue either but something about trees does it for me... Enjoy the challenge of speeding up the tree growth process even if that's relative to an organism that lives for centuries...

Kick in the pants is oaks really don't hit their prime for acorn production until their 50th b-day so if you got the money honey buy land w/ trees in their prime... I guess the consolation prize for what I'm trying to do are studies that show 1/3 of


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## rcatron

Very interesting read. Look forward to following the updates. Any info on how you track which trees are superior? Seems like it would take a few years to gather data on mast production, drop time, etc.


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## StrmChzr

LOL - patience isn't my virtue either but something about trees does it for me... Enjoy the challenge of speeding up the tree growth process even if that's relative to an organism that lives for centuries...

Kick in the pants is oaks really don't hit their prime for acorn production until their 50th b-day so if you got the money honey buy land w/ trees in their prime... I guess the consolation prize for what I'm trying to do is this study's results where 1/3 of the oaks contribute 75% of the acorn production in the forest. Also, about half the oaks in a given forest are poor acorn producers that contribute only about 10% to the forest's overall acorn production. 

Take away from study (for me) is if i'm going to grow oaks than it only makes sense to be super diligent identifying best candidates. Translation is only 1 in 3 trees in a given "park" are worth of picking and half the oaks in park aren't worth your time so let the squirrels have those nuts!

http://fwf.ag.utk.edu/personnel/charper/pdfs/Masting_Char_of_White_Oaks_SEAFWA2009.pdf


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## Clayton

Oak regeneration in the bottomlands around here is very low due to repeated spring flooding that seems to be getting worse in this area. Planting trees is about the only way to replace those that are dropping out due to age, flood stress and storms.


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## StrmChzr

Durn me - I can be so long winded talking ducks and trees that I repeat myself verbatim... 

To continue kicking this "oak" horse, it's all about selecting genetics from deez nuts (touché DFS).... Everything else is meaningless for me if I don't know baby's momma. 

FWIW - There's a lot of short cuts to selecting deez nuts, so no need to be as Nuckin as me to get similar "golden goose" acorns. Talk to your local city or county arborist, folks active in sierra club or similar organizations locally, and even professional tree trimmers will be able to point you in the direction of specific oaks that you'll be proud to hunt under the rest of you and your kids life's. 

Rcatron - you are wise in the ways of being Futz'ed, the timber duck hole force is strong with you! Researchers say 3 consecutive years of observing mast characteristics is necessary to qualify a tree. There's a couple of studies that I've read that corroborate the 3 year threshold, but I couldn't quickly find them in my bookmarks. I'll shotgun links to everything I've filed pertaining to acorn collection and let ya'll sort through them as your interest and time dictate. 

To summarize, mast production for oaks is variable b/c of environmental conditions, unknown factors such as senescence (phenomenon whereby oaks over large geographic range seemingly "communicate" to synchronize heavy vs poor mast years), and other factors we don't fully understand. None of those factors are within our capacity to influence, but mast characteristics that we can identify over few years of observation is within our control to select "heavy producers" genetics to propogate in containers.....

If I haven't put you to sleep, these links will:
http://www.nsl.fs.fed.us/collection and care of acorns.pdf
http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs141p2_029223.ppt
http://www.csu.edu/cerc/researchreports/documents/IllinoisDirectSeedingHandbook2003.pdf
http://extension.missouri.edu/p/g9414
http://www.ncrs.fs.fed.us/pubs/tb/tb1/techbrf1.html


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## StrmChzr

Clayton - First acorns to drop are buzz kills... They're almost always aborted acorns that the tree sheds before it begins dropping its real loot... As a general rule, white oak family acorns (bur, chinkapin, post, etc) drop their rocks in Sept-Oct and red oak family acorns (pin, black, northern red, etc) make em rain in Oct-Nov. For our purposes of flooded timber duck hunting, most of the oaks we concerned w/ are red oak family so it's right about prime time to make like squirrels.....

Bottomland reforestation (BR) has become a huge deal beginning after the Great Flood of '93. Arguably the largest natural disaster of our generation, it stimulated tremendous research and funding for BR. Unfortunately, the failures outweigh the successes primarily b/c of site variability. 

To come full circle on the Oaks from Acorns discussion, the same problem w/ BR affects container trees: Principle of Limiting Factor. Borrowed this explanation from Wiki: 
_"The concept of limiting factors is based on __Liebig's Law__of the Minimum, which states that growth is controlled not by the total amount of resources available, but by the scarcest resource."_ 

Translation for me is, "A chain can only be as strong as it's weakest link".


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## Clayton

I have collected acorns enough in the same general area to know which trees to ignore and which ones to seek out. Interesting that the same trees almost always have acorns infested with insects year in and year out and the ones that rarely do are that way year in and year out. I only collect from oaks in bottomland areas as I feel they are more adapted to wet conditions as compared to the same species in a more upland setting. 

Have you noticed that trees that seem to be dieing produce tons of acorns especially their last year or two? Like they are trying extra hard to spread their "seed" around.

Interesting you mentioned senescence as I may have seen something like this in the GTR in which I got the trail camera pics. Never seen so many acorns produced in that one area. Even with the heavy duck use their were tons remaining that in some areas created a carpet of trees sprouting. Thankfully we did not have a spring flood so hopefully they will provide a good start to new regeneration in that area.


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## da fowl slayer

Interesting
This new project I have going on was select cut 5yr ago. It looked rough. But as the spring came around and summer it became apparent as I started looking that this place was loaded w oaks
Pin oaks
White oaks
Red oaks 

About 160ac of hardwoods that will flood 

As I was cutting brush this weekend the limbs were loaded w acorns

What about pecans I noticed lots of those as well


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## Clayton

Yes if they are the smaller native pecans then mallards and wood ducks will eat them. If you have a lot of pecan trees then you really have a sweet place as a nice bottomland stand is a rarity.


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## da fowl slayer

Well it was a lot nicer

Few greedy family members and a timber guy 

Bad deal

But looking forward I am gonna learn from you guys to start a stocking program and begin restoration 

What else do I have to do 

Yes Clayton they are native pecans
This project has potential to be the best I have done

It's a 1/2 mile from a refuge with 50,000-100,000 ducks and 400 yards from miss River 

Surely


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## StrmChzr

Clayton - google the "Wye oak". I have dozen or so F1 seedlings I started after picking from its clone (identical genetically to Wye) in a local park. It was the national champ white oak (Q. alba) and it's historical significance gave "tree folks" incentive to take clones from this giant as it became obvious it was nearing the end of life. Sure enough, in its final season, it dropped largest volume of acorns recorded in modern times which fascinates me b/c it didn't die of natural causes. It exited this world with a thunderous roar when a hurricane did it in months after dropping hundreds of bushels of acorns. 

Oaks have survived in this dynamically changing world of ours for eons. Nature selected traits which favor not a specific trees survival that would be doomed from environmental factors like glaciers, warming trends, etc but survival of the species by its capacity for procreation. 

FWIW - I have F1 seedlings (and I'm pursuing clones) from maybe the most famous (living) oak in the US, the McBaine Bur, located outside of Columbia MO on the floodplain of the mighty MO river. It began life before any white man had ever set eyes on our continent, was a "teenager" when it watched Lewis and Clark passed by, and was in the twilight of its life when a bald headed duck hunter stopped to collect acorns and pay my respects to one of the grandest plants I've been fortunate to see. Gives a fella perspective on what our role is not as landowners or land managers for a brief place in time, but as stewards in this world that we have so much potential to affect for the better or worse.


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## spaightlabs

Great read gents. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.


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## StrmChzr

Clayton - another worthless fact I've acquired along the way kind of related to senescence is the incidence of Lyme disease in the "human" population is directly affected by heavy mast years. Not sure what "brain-e-ak" figured this riddle out, but high acorn production years results in an explosion in the white footed mouse population which is primary carrier of ticks that cause Lyme disease. Weirdly enough it ain't the bumper acorn year that screws us hunters when we get bit, but the following year which is usually a weak acorn crop and mouse population plummets which means the stinking' ticks are looking for their blood lunch elsewhere (usually they find me)....

And that's this mornings "rest of the story".....


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## Clayton

The bottomlands around here flood so regularly in the spring that ticks and chiggers are rarely a problem. Now get on the adjacent hills and it is a whole other story.

You need more skinks and lizards. According to a friends study Lyme diseased ticks that feed on skinks/lizards become Lyme free after consuming their blood. Skinks/lizards are an important part of the life cycle of ticks in the SE US but up north in Lyme country mice are important and of course their blood has no negative influence on Lyme.


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## StrmChzr

Clayton - looks like I'm in the market for a new pet and hunting partner. If you know any skinks wanting a nice home, I'm not much to look at but one helluva a good cook!

DFS - brother I wish I could throw some useful info your direction as it pertains to hardwood regeneration, but I got nothing......

Coppicing is fairly common timber harvest practice I think. I believe that (theoretically) an oak that's cut every 15-20 years for harvest will never die, it will just continue to be "reborn" through stump sprouts. Not sure if I'm buying what I'm saying though... There's got to be an end at some point when the roots reach a certain threshold in size I'd think.....

Pecans - I know a little more about pee-cans from the world's expert, Wild Bill (that Dr Wild Bill), who I've heard lecture and talked to a few times. His pecan plantation is down the river from us in extreme SEK not more than a hop skip and jump into Oklahoma. Clayton's spot on about native pecans being primo river bottom. Wild Bill (excuse me Dr William Reid) says don't even think about planting pecans unless you have some DEEP and rich soil to grow them in. I can validate this statement firsthand..... as the pecans I planted while I was in high school (20 years ago) in the crappy shallow clay on our place are sucky performers. They're so lame that you all would be second guessing everything I've said in this thread if you could see them now... But a kid had to have a few hard knocks in life to make him work harder at his hobbies...


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## JFG

All this is very interesting, thanks for sharing with us. 
Clayton, your buddy's study very well might explain why we have so few cases of Lyme's originating here in the SE. Never realized the importance of our scaly friends in that regard.


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## Clayton

JFG - Yes that basically was her premise as to why Lyme has never really taken hold here in the SE US.


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## rcatron

I guess updates on this thread will have to wait several months. The patience you tree guys have is commendable


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## rcatron

Yall ever mess with any of the Chestnut varieties they have out now?


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## smashdn

I had questions about pecans, not enough for another thread so I'll pose them here.

My understanding is there are two "varieties" a norhtern and southern and within those two groups many other cultivars. I suspect I am right on the border of the two varieties range. I will often find trees that will be loaded but not actually get the nut to reach maturity. A hundred or so miles north where I hunt it is not uncommon to find the smaller pecans dropping nuts about the same as hickories, in late summer very early fall, with well developed kernels.

If you are in an area like mine where the southern varities occur naturally but do not thrive, would I be better suited to gather nuts from the northern varieties that are capable of maturing in the growing season?

Now a completely different train of though but regarding oaks somewhat, how different are the woods today versus what they were like when chestnuts were the dominate species? And do you think that oaks have fully adapted to the loss of the passenger pigeon which I believe had quite the role in fertilizing forests before europeans ame to america.


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## Clayton

I grew up with a large pecan tree in the backyard. It produced a bumper crop of pecans most years but the dang squirrels would pick them long before they fell off. We rarely ever found one to eat. Sometimes I am amazed any acorns every make it due to the squirrels. One big problem I have had raising oaks are the dang squirrels digging up the trees to get to the acorn. Even after the tree is getting pretty tall if there is any acorn there them suckers will dig it up. I have a yard full of oaks but them dang squirrels seem to like the red oaks better as my yard is only of the white oak variety. Finally started trapping them as problems arose. The first year I started I removed 24 in a week and a half. Has anyone seen what a very small bag of pecans cost? If I had any I would be collecting the pecans to sell. Not sure I would even leave any for the ducks! LOL


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## Clayton

I grew up with a large pecan tree in the backyard. It produced a bumper crop of pecans most years but the dang squirrels would pick them long before they fell off. We rarely ever found one to eat. Sometimes I am amazed any acorns every make it due to the squirrels. One big problem I have had raising oaks are the dang squirrels digging up the trees to get to the acorn. Even after the tree is getting pretty tall if there is any acorn there them suckers will dig it up. I have a yard full of oaks but them dang squirrels seem to like the red oaks better as my yard is only of the white oak variety. Finally started trapping them as problems arose. The first year I started I removed 24 in a week and a half. Has anyone seen what a very small bag of pecans cost? If I had any I would be collecting the pecans to sell. Not sure I would even leave any for the ducks! LOL


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## da fowl slayer

Pe cans as my grandpa said takes me back

Every ur my grandpa would guard then w a 410

In the city the police would visit him at least once a yr for discharging a firearm in the city

He hated crows, bluejays, and squirrels 

With a passion
And he wouldn't come off a quarter on his price

Take em or leave em


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## Clayton

smashdn said:


> If you are in an area like mine where the southern varities occur naturally but do not thrive, would I be better suited to gather nuts from the northern varieties that are capable of maturing in the growing season?




I would say yes get the northern variety that you know is successfully reproducing. Squirrels love pecans even more than acorns. Be prepared to fight them off if you have your tree pots outdoors.


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## Clayton

Interesting read on American chestnut abundance.

http://highstead.net/pdfs/2014-72-2-american-chestnut.pdf


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## StrmChzr

Guys,

As it relates to "nature's thieves", I've laid down my Snake Slayer .410 this season and I'm providing all fuzzy nuts (squirrels), Blue Jays (GO ROYALS!!!), and chipmunks (I'm quite partial to the first half of the name) with amnesty. 


My "critter pardon" came about after I discovered last year that a bur oak (we planted when first bought prop nearly 2 decades ago) had dozens of offspring growing all over our property as a result of ole fuzzy nuts burying its acorns. My best buddy, former MDC quail researcher and, IMO, world's authority on quail habitat, kindly informed me that my direct seed project was an inefficient substitute for supplying acorn piles and letting "nature's thieves" distribute seed for me..... This topic deserves a new thread!

Regarding Chestnuts, I'm going to pass on this topic, only b/c i don't have the self control required for brevity and chestnuts are not good candidates for duck habitat (chestnut trees demand well drained soils and cannot tolerate wet feet). Keep in mind, the biggest ecological disaster to occur on the North American continent was the inadvertent introduction of blight at the NYC botanical gardens around the turn of the century! Less than 50 years later, over 4 BILLION American chestnut trees were dead and our American Forest has never recovered. A tremendous scientific project to bring back the "Lord of the Forests" is currently underway spearheaded by the TACF.


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## rcatron

That picture is pretty incredible. On the topic of letting the animals distibute acorns, do you do any selective pruning to give certain plants a better chance of survival? I'd imagine you would see a lot of closely spaced plants


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## Clayton

When the squirrels start digging up trees up to 1' tall to get to the acorn then they got to go!


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## StrmChzr

True story: professional counterpart of mine has pecan orchard in NE OK which was losing thousands of $$$ every year to squirrel's thieving pecans off the branch. They hired varmint control company that covered the 160 acres w/ couple hundred traps after they had unsuccessfully attempted to reduce population playing sniper. During 2 weeks in late December, they trapped and destroyed 1200 squirrels!!! By the time fall harvest rolled around, they observed a marginal increase in production, however, the following season's harvest wasn't as productive which they attributed to squirrel population resurgence. The cost of varmint control did not outweigh the first year's production increase, so.......

Clayton - brother, cut those nuts off seedling before you plant! It's the only way to keep fuzzy nuts and voles from thwarting your planting efforts. Give em hell w/ the scattergun, but squirrels breed twice yearly so keep warming them up w/ hot lead if you continue to wage squirrel war.... I know when I'm whipped and if I can't beat 'em.......


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## StrmChzr

I have to laugh, because I've out-finessed myself.....my foe, my enemy, is an animal......


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## Clayton

I feel like Bill Murray sometimes! The dang squirrels in my yard get more tomatoes than I do. They chew on treated and painted 4x4 posts on the carport. They have gotten in my storage shed and chewed on decoys, decoy line and even lead anchors. Hope the SO* got lead poisoning. Have I mentioned I hate squirrels?


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## rcatron

Nothing like playing sniper from an upstairs window. Touching the tomatoes is an instant death sentence


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## Clayton

I am in a residential neighborhood so can't do it safely. Girlfriend will not let me shoot the ones at her place getting her pecans. Her property so her rules.


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## KAHunter

Strmchzr - Love the information. I have grown a few oaks from acorns myself but no where near this scale, mostly for a small hobby. I run a landscape contracting firm so I have easy access to all types of plants. I usually skip the growing process and just buy them either in containers or field grown. I am buying at a wholesale price in large quantities, usually 3 to 4 tractor trailer full of plants a week when we are busy, so i can get them pretty cheap. I also have a relationship with growers to get their undersirable (ugly/unsightly - no use in landscape trade) or oversized (in pots) trees that they would throw away for cheap. I have found that with the proper soil and environmental conditions, as well as proper planting time (thats a big one), I find there is little to no lag in growth when trees are transplanted. Dont get me wrong I really like what you are doing, but I am fortunate enough to be able to skip the growing process.

I had a question concerning harvesting acorns. I have some that are in grassy (3 inches or so lawn) areas. What have you found to be the best way to havrst them from the ground efficiently?? I guess raking may be the best but didnt know if there was a better way. Thanks!!!


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## StrmChzr

KAHunter - Hook 'em "reject" trees up to a tow truck all day long! I like your style, skip the boring stuff and get the biggin's in the ground and dropping 'corns next year instead of playing the waiting game.

I get it, man. I bought 1/2 dozen spaded 3"-4" dbh oaks for $30 each 3 years ago from online auction I'm addicted to... I'm tapped this year, but just saw there's 15 gallon SWO, pin, and burs on the block right now at $15.....dang my tree obsession and stupid online auctions, I'm sitting on my hands right now - LOL...





My best SWO's are durn near 30' tall this year after adding 4' of new growth this summer! Of course, I'm "juicing" them with milorganite, wheelbarrows full of fine pine bark mulch, and big gulps of H20....one tree increased acorn production from 1 sandwich baggie collected last year to two 1-gallon freezer bags (=~10lbs of cleaned sinker acorns) this year... Man, I love SWOs!!!



It's easy to see this summer's new growth compared to old growth right now as leaves are turning: brown leaves are old growth (branches one year old and older), yellow leaves are this spring's flush (new growth), and green leaves are mid-summer flush of leaves from "juicing" (i.e. close to perfect growing conditions).... Side note - there's an old wife's tale that fertilizing during summer months is bad b/c new growth doesn't have time to "harden off" before winter. I haven't seen firsthand nor read any research to support this claim. I apply my 3rd and final dose of Milorganite no later than August 1st so new growth isn't being stimulated in early fall (i.e. heavy fertilizer and watering in late summer).


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## StrmChzr

As is my custom, I "blah, blah, blah'ed" a lot about trees (same thing happens w/ duck hunting) and didn't answer KAHunters question about acorn collection in grass needing mowed..

I try to stay away from collecting large quantities of acorns if grass isn't mowed fairly short (defintely less than 3"). Don't get me wrong, I'll hand pick any acorn off ground if I like the characteristics of its momma to grow in containers. For my direct seeding project, I need quantity (and quality) so I search out trees that are easier pickin's in parks, cementaries, etc so I can sweep, rake, or roll w/ nut gatherer..




Nut gatherer aint worth a darn in 3" or taller grass because good viable acorns are heavy enough that when they drop they're resting on thatch not "floating" on top of grass like junky aborted acorns will. I've thought about looking for a used Billy Goat, gas powered suction rake that bags leaves and yard debris, and considered using my Honda EU generator to power large Shop-Vac to suck 'corns up... but I get enough, "ARE YOU FLIPPIN' CRAZY" looks from folks as it is when collecting acorns that I don't need cops showing up w/ straight jacket and can of mace.... I'm worried I'd only confirm the jacket and mace w/ my Egor response:


The solution in tall grass is to catch them as they're dropping in a wide container or tarp.... But if you're this far along in the thread (prob just me and KAHunter at this point), you know ole fuzzy nuts going to be real grateful for making it that much easier for him. A wide pail or bucket will need top covered w/ chicken wire or tarp will need checked regularly to have any shot at making this work..


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## Clayton

Didn't know one could by trees from an online auction. I am assuming the quality of the ones you bought were of good quality?


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## StrmChzr

SWO in pic was $30 and I believe 4"dbh when I stole it and 4 other oaks off auction site. Reality is nursery biz is tied directly to new house construction booms and busts, so I reckon these trees are a casualty of housing market not fully recovering. KC is hotbed for both wholesale and mom/pops nurseries, so maybe it's just unique in that regard...

Sometimes these online auctions have good deals and sometimes they're typical auctions where folks (excluding myself) get carried away and spend way more than some pile of crap is worth...

The trees I bought were mix of good quality (i.e. "Pretty" trees w/ good central leader and appropriate pruning) and some that will need pruning work to restore central leader or lateral branching.... None I've bought were diseased or had some defect that pruning couldn't fix. It's kinda like KAHunter said, maybe not ready for a 1/2 million dollar house's front yard, but unless ducks are getting snobby, an acorn is an acorn.


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## StrmChzr

Good read regarding "nut not falling far from the tree"... 

http://www.researchgate.net/publica...INGS_OF_SWAMP_WHITE_OAK_BUR_OAK_AND_WHITE_OAK


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## Clayton

I have a friend in that works in designing mitigation projects in the northeast. He is not a big fan of bare root trees because he says deer browse damage is worse than from trees planted from acorns/seed. Often he has not choice but to use them. His assumption was that bare root trees are started in heavily fertilized ground and thus they contain more nutrients thus attracting the deer more to them than to other similiar sized samplings in the same location.


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## Clayton

Well it looks like willow oak acorn production was a complete bust in this area. Guess I will have to pick another species to try your raising technique. I am also going to try it to start milkweed as well.


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## StrmChzr

Clayton - if want some swamp milkweed seed (Asclepias incarnata), brother, I got a few billion to "loan out"... Seems our acorn crops were bust too! I couldn't have picked a bushel of acorns if I wanted to from all my oaks combined this fall. I found some willow oaks in KC that were used for landscaping and, man, I clocked an hour or so just to get handful of sinkers...I'll say that pin and black oaks are the exception to this year's dramatic swing from last season's mast boom to this falls bust..

We experienced a bit of a natural disaster this week. Good buddy and I were bowhunting the rut Mon-Tues and during a lunch break I took this pic of a direct seeded pin oak while showing him the prop...




One day later, the perfect (fire)storm hit when +30mph sustained winds, 2 months of essentially zero precipitation, and a 5 day old bonfire started a grass fire that covered 3 sections. Thankfully, no structures were damaged but fire smoked some MDC bareroots and bunch of my trees started in pioneer pots in our native prairie stand I was restoring to oak savanna. Fire also reached another 4 acre native prairie oak savanna site of mine that I'd direct seeded acorns last March.

Mother Nature can be a fickle fickle gal..... 

Pic taken by my folks as they were forced to evacuate their casa:




My 3 way hybrid oaks, called Concordias (SWO, Chinkapin, and Dwarf Chinkapin), I purchased from MDC as bareroots 1.5 years ago...
They looked like this last spring:




Tree cages are 4' tall to give you perspective:





This is all that was left Wed night when I arrived to farm..


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## Clayton

I have collected plenty of swamp and common milkweed seed. 

Oh man that really sucks!!!!! Hopefully they will resprout from the roots.


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## StrmChzr

Yeppers, kinda like Forrest Gump said "it happens"... Hoping most (or at least some) coppice as I believe majority were dormant despite our Indian summer replacing autumn this year... 

Either way, I'm not all that tore up over it. Had it been my own controlled burn that got away from me, than I'd be really peeved...I chalk it up as cost of doing biz living on eastern fringe of Great Plains. Not a single one of us can control "acts of God", sometimes we just think we can...

Besides, I'm nuckin futz enough to have more container oaks needing a permanent home than some nurseries..... I don't even have to recruit my first helper, she volunteered her services this afternoon... Her daddy named her Savanna for good reason!!!


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## StrmChzr

To hijack my own thread and get wayyy off topic, anybody wanting swamp and common milkweed, can PM me and I'll send them out an envelope w/ some seed. I got this weird "save the Monarchs" vibe going past 12 months and common and swamp milkweed are abundant in my area and prolific seed producers... Also collected quite a few butterfly (Asclepias tuberosa), spider (A.asperula) and prairie milkweed (A. Sullivanti) this season that I'm going to interseed in the scorched earth this winter..


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## Clayton

Sadly milkweed is hard to find around here so we are playing Johnny milkweed seed. Actually have found very poor success just spreading seed around. Started raising and replanting. We even tagged monarchs for several years. numbers have dropped so much we haven't bothered for a while now.


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## cougfan316

Real interesting read. We don't hunt flooded timber up here. For squirrels look at the high power air rifles. I've got one and use it to take care of them in the folks and neighbors walnut trees. Much quieter than a .22 or .410 and pretty accurate with the right pellet and a scope.


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## StrmChzr

Smoke 'em if you got 'em... I'm pretty sure it was "the man on the grassy knoll!"


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## cougfan316

That was at 35-40 yards.


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## smashdn

Go flint or go home.


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## Clayton

Beautiful gun. Do you duck hunt with one also??????????


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## rcatron

Smash, awesome gun. 32 cal?


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## smashdn

Yes on .32, no on duck hunitng with one. That one is just a squirrel gun.


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## duckhuntinfool

I agree that is a beautiful rifle. Did you build or buy.?


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## smashdn

Dad built it for me.

Re: Pecans
Any reason to think that the air pruning pots would not work for pecan trees? We have run across a northern variety grove of trees in Indiana that is producing huge pecans. The plan is to start some trees and pull Johnny Pecanseed with them in a couple of places.


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## StrmChzr

You had to bring up pee-cans... I'd really rather discuss trees that I don't totally suck at growing!!! 
Seriously, when I was a young teen my grandfather passed and had little styrofoam cups w/ pecans started in his shed that dad and I transplanted to our yard and then had hydraulically spaded and relocated to our property a few years later. Fast forward ~25 years and those same pecan trees have grown slower than molasses.... I just stuck my head out the door and our "biggin'" pecan tree isn't a total slouch, the trunk base is prob 12" diameter, maybe 24' tall and it drops a few nuts in recent years. 

That being said, I wouldn't take my advice w/ those results in a million years...

Here's some info that should help though:

http://rootmaker.com/sites/default/files/pdf/PecanPaperBigTitlePress.pdf

http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-1012/F-6207web.pdf

http://northernpecans.blogspot.com/2013/06/growing-pecan-seedlings-in-containers.html


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## smashdn

Good info. Thank you. Dad had planned some in regular flower post that he then just placed in his garden. I had to dig damn near to China when it was time to get them out and till up his garden.


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## StrmChzr

Been there done that...suckers can set some roots, huh! Until you live it, hard to believe a 9" oak or pecan seedling has +24" of roots attached, but they do unless you root prune. Most effective way to root prune is good ole fashion air and instead of all your seedlings energy being dedicated to sending a deep taproot that first year or two, you will see top growth that wouldn't be possible unless seedling is forced to survive on its ability to photosynthesize (i.e. generate more green foliage)... At least it sounds good and is somewhat believable.....

Proof in the puddin':







Here's a starter tray for persimmons prior to "plucking out" germinated seeds for repotting in Pioneer Pots. I "made" it out of inverted plastic shelf....


This is bottom side of persimmon starter trays.... If you look closely, you'll see new white root tips emerging from potting mix and those black stringy looking things are root tips after being air pruned. Not pretty, but forces roots to branch out and develop more fibrous root system instead of single deep taproot.


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## Clayton

The only oaks I have found producing good were the Shumard oaks in the GTR where I got the trail cam pics last year. They had a bumper crop. The GTR is on high ground with no real runoff to it. Traditionally it doesn't flood good until February and some years not at all. Now with the rain we are getting now and expecting over the next couple of days it may flood early this year. I already have my photo blind set up in hopes of getting some better quality pictures than what the trail camera is capable of getting.


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## StrmChzr

You know I dig it, Clayton! Hey, if I post up some pics of what I think are Shumard oak seedlings I found at creek crossing few weeks back, could you possibly confirm species? I'm 90% sure they are Shumardi but we are on the northern tip of their range and be nice to have another opinion.


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## Clayton

I am far from a tree ID expert. The acorn size/shape was the key for me. There is a carpet of last years seedlings below some of the Shumard trees. I will try to get you some pictures tomorrow.


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## Clayton

Here is the bark and leaf from the Shumard oak.


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## Clayton

Here is the acorn and some seedlings.


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## KAHunter

Thanks for the help on collecting the acorns. didnt get many as I have been super busy but gonna set up next year to catch a bunch. Thinking of setting some weed mat up under some trees when they start droping to catch them next year. we will see.


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## StrmChzr

Might have already mentioned this, but you might consider using a chicken wire covered tub or other means of "theft" protection when collecting acorns... I think a large diameter Rubbermaid tub w/ chicken wire covering top such that it sags to the middle of tub would be best. I wouldn't have chicken wire pulled too taut b/c might create a "trampoline effect" w/ acorns falling from higher branches. If chicken wire is sagging to the middle, it may also assist acorns falling through chicken wire while they roll towards the middle. I'd snip 1 or 2 meshes in the middle of cover to facilitate collection while preventing fuzzy nuts from helping himself to a free meal!


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## Clayton




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## smashdn

Dad and I were camping during turkey season in LBL many years ago. All of our dry food and kitchen type supplies were stored in rubbermaid containers.

In this one particular container we had a loaf of bread and Doritos. Fuzzy nuts chewed his way into the lid and ate half a bag of bread and most of the doritos while we were out that morning after turkeys.

Moral of the story, eat the squirrels before they eat your food. And a rubbermaid container ain't going to keep a squirrel out if he wants in bad enough. Maybe a metal washtub would be the ticket?


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## rcatron

Reviving a oldie...any updates on this project? Not sure how to tag StrmChzr to get his attention


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## Fowler267 RIP

Wonder how just hand planting the acorns would do?


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## StrmChzr

Wassup fellas? Don't make it on the forums much anymore, but still love talking ducks, habitat, and trees.. sucks Photobucket is holding my pics hostage, but I ain't payin'..

Fowler267 - By hand planting acorns, I assume you mean using a dibble bar? Can be done, but personally it's my least favorite way... if I'm going to use a dibble bar, I'd prefer to plant 1 yr seedling plugs grown in root pruning containers (or bareroot seedlings) so I'm maximizing the return on my efforts.. Whatever planting method you use, just remember, plant the largest quantity of acorns as possible.. _most acorns you plant will be a loss: predation will get the majority of acorns before spring arrives - those that do successfully germinate will fail without weed control first summer and protection from rabbits the first few winters.._ 

rcatron - A comprehensive update since I started this thread 3+ years ago is prob due, so maybe this spring I'll take pics of my successes and failures and write up a follow up.. 
Quick update is my methods haven't changed from what I've described in this thread. I still plant a few bucketfuls of acorns every year on our farm, but my focus has been on contract growing/planting of oaks past couple years. Planted 300+ oaks on my first contract that I grew from acorns in root pruning containers for 2 seasons. These oaks were in 3 gal and 5 gal Root Pouch fabric containers when planted and were 4'-8' tall. Growing conditions their first season in the ground were decent and 95% survived to put on new growth in their new home. Pack rats were the cause of almost all losses, which was remedied by using screen door material stapled around trunk.

Happy to answer any specific questions anytime, so I'll try to check in more often!


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## Clayton

Good to see back. In 2016 I bought the root pots you recommended and had a good crop going. Got them moved to pots then had a heart attack and lost them all! Have yet to get started again due to continued health issues.


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## StrmChzr

Good grief Clayton, that's scary! CAD is leading cause of death in men over 40 in US (more people die of heart disease than all cancers combined) and about 50% of those folks never had a symptom of atherosclerosis until sudden death from a massive heart attack. TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF CLAYTON!

I've been MIA from Refuge forums primarily b/c we've been multiplying like rabbits at my house - 3 babies in 4 years... Now I have lots of "helpers" in the fall to assist w/ acorn collection!


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## Clayton

That first one nearly got me! I had to be life flighted. Crazy thing is I had mine 8 days after my sister had one. She luckily survived hers. I wasn’t happy with only having one so decided to have a second one five months later. They finally decided I should have a quadruple bypass. That sucked! As if that wasn’t enough I got Rocky Mtn Spotted Fever in July. Which happens to be some bad juju. Still very weak from it. Just got diagnosed with thyroid cancer in November. Going in for consultation with surgeon tomorrow. Have not duck hunted at all since end of 2014/15 season.


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## Redonthehead

Clayton - sorry to hear of your trouble. You certainly have had more than your share. Hope things turn out OK.

I have planted lots of acorns and bare root seedlings over the past 25 years. Not a good return on the effort at all. About 5 years ago planted 20 acres via NRCS EQIP and WHIP projects. They said the 360+ trees per acre would out grow the deer/rabbits. Wrong. I saved the plantings by installing 5' tree protection tubes on 700 scattered seedlings. IMO that's the only way to go - fewer trees but protect the heck out of them. If I do it again it will be ~50 trees per acre but tube each one. I understand the NRCS will now allow tree tubes in their practices.


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## 8UP4 FOWL

I have heard good things about the tree protection/grow tubes, but they seem pretty pricey. Any suggestions on a homemade, or cheaper solution?


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